A week after the State Supreme Court found the state’s “paramount duty” unfulfilled, we find a misdirected group of Olympia legislators pushing charter school legislation. Again, for the 4th time, because voters have already rejected previous legislation 3 times.
This, really, is their solution to the funding crisis in public education?
So, time for a lesson, Washington. First, let’s review.
1) On the whole, charter schools provide no better (and, just as often, worse) educational outcomes than public schools, according to the Credo study out of Stanford University.
2) When folks talk about charter schools, they often envision a group of like-minded parents and educators coming together to pursue a common creative and exciting vision, a visionary “city on a hill”. This is indeed true for wealthy people. The reality of charter schools in less affluent communities is more often a school run for profit by a mega-corporation, with high teacher turnover, kids in uniforms lined up in rows, and teaching to a test. Music? Art? Not part of testing, not part of school.
3) Charter schools don’t have to take or put up with all students. Special Ed? Too expensive, so let them stay in public schools. Lower socio-economic class? They really wouldn’t “fit in with our school culture.”
4) Charter schools drain financial resources from the existing public system.
5) The existing public system isn’t broken, but it needs help. Including financial help. Including the Legislature stepping up to its “paramount duty.”
6) Speaking of funding, how does that “educating kids and making a profit” thing work? One well-documented scam played out in New York charter schools: hedge fund managers collect huge tax incentives for buying real estate for their charter school. When the charter school closes or moves 3 years later, well, the building can be sold or redeveloped at full market value.
Now, the test questions. You should write a couple of paragraphs on each. Pictures and diagrams may be helpful in explaining your ideas.
a) Who really benefits from charter schools? What are their motives?
b) What important educational issues should the Legislature be working on at this time?
c) Why do rich folks propose one kind of school for poor kids, but send their own kids to very different kind of schools?
d) How can the Legislature sweep aside the State Constitution when it comes to schools, but find money for tax breaks for huge banks and folks who purchase corporate jets?
e) Why do we taxpayers put up with this kind of service from elected officials?
Eric Muhs
Seattle Public School teacher
Member of SEE, Social Equality Educators
Candidate for president of the Seattle Education Association
Post Script:
Please consider writing the Washington State Senate Committee on Early Learning and K-12 Education and letting them know that you do not support charter schools.
Chair
Vice Chair
Committee Members
On the house side, the committee on education contact information is:
santos.sharontomiko@leg.wa.gov
And for the Republicans, who do not publish their e-mail addresses, you can call Julia Kwon and leave a message, 360.786.7292.
“For the Republicans, who do not publish their e-mail addresses?” What kind of nonsense is that? Here are the e-mail addresses for all House members:
https://dlr.leg.wa.gov/MemberEmail/Default.aspx?Chamber=H
And here they are for the Senate:
https://dlr.leg.wa.gov/MemberEmail/Default.aspx?Chamber=S
I hope this is helpful.
I was referring to the House committee on education.
To get to their e-mail addresses from the committee website you go to their homepage then you have to submit your address and other personal data for them to see if they are going to listen to you. The Democrats on that committee, when you go to their homepage, have their e-mail addresses right there, no games have to be played.
Thanks for the other list link though.
Dora
Eric,
I appreciate how passionate you are. I mean that. But I’m wondering which charter schools you’ve visited? You write, “Lower socio-economic class? They really wouldn’t “fit in with our school culture,” but the charter schools I’ve seen – and granted, I’ve seen only three LA Charter schools – were extremely high poverty. I didn’t see kids in lines. I did see art and music.
I understand the concern with charters pulling money away from other schools, and I know from the UTLA blog that they’re seeing seats lost to charters, so this is of course a concern, but I think it can be misleading to say charters drain resources. They are public schools, and so get state funds for each student. The resources follow the student, so public schools lose seats and charters gain them because families want to pull their child from the local traditional school and enroll in the charter. The charter principals I spoke with actually got a little less per student than non-charter schools did, because a chunk of the per-child allotment went to the local central office but the charter didn’t have access to any of the central office’s resources. The schools I saw were funded by the state, not private donations. In fact, we have some schools in Seattle whose PTAs raise a tremendous amount of money – like a quarter of a million dollars a year – to supplement the school’s budget, something the parent populations of the schools I saw could never do. And, the teachers in the schools I saw earned more than I do.
If you haven’t gone to see some charters that are doing well, I would recommend it. I used to be against charters too, but then I visited some and realized they’re doing some amazing things. The kids are happy. The teachers were happy. It felt good to be there. I’m not saying we don’t have schools in Seattle that share those qualities – we do. I’m just saying charters aren’t the awful, exclusionary places you paint them to be.
I don’t think they’re doing anything that can’t, if we work hard, be done in our schools, but they don’t have more money and they don’t have some magically motivated group of kids. I get frustrated when I hear people say charters cream the motivated kids. That seems to imply the struggling children at our schools don’t want to learn, or their parents don’t want an excellent education for their child. And if we want charters to admit special-needs students in Washington, we can make that part of the law. Personally, I don’t think charters are some magic answer to the problem of poverty, and I don’t want to see them eradicate the schools we have now, but I don’t think they are the end of public education. I don’t think we need to be afraid of them if the charter law is a good one.
And I couldn’t agree with you more on the need to adequately fund schools. Reducing resources and adding requirements does not make sense.
Respectfully,
Kristin Bailey-Fogarty
Kristin,
Eric will probably respond once he realizes that you have posted this comment, but in the meantime, I would like to add my thoughts on this subject.
The money that is lost in public schools is the pool of money that all of the children share. Each child has the same allotment in a school district and it basically goes into a pool at the school hat the student attends. Some students need more than others in terms of resources. So,for instance, children with special needs or ELL students will draw from that pool more than a student who has less resource requirements. When a student leaves that school, the allotment goes with that child. Charter schools, such as KIPP, do not take ELL or special needs students but they will take students that they feel will perform to a certain standard. So that means that the students who need the less in the pool will take the allotment with them that is due to them but then takes a little more that the special needs student requires. You continue to take those students who require less in terms of resources and leave a larger population of students who do and you have a very real problem.
If you go to I Met With Arne Duncan Today, http://seattleducation2010.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/i-met-with-arne-duncan/, and scroll down to the meeting with Secretary Duncan, you will read what a Chicago teacher is concerned with in terms of this exact situation. Her school is surrounded by charter schools and her school was left with mostly high need students but their pool was drained and there was no money for these students.
I don’t understand why a charter school wouldn’t have access to central district offices unless they were managed by a Charter Management Operator (CMO) which is yet another expense for the tax payer to bear. See Charter School Industry Running Amok in Florida with Taxpayer Dollars, http://blog.buzzflash.com/node/13215.
If you don’t mind, I would like to know what charter schools you visited in California.
The issue is having the state fund public school properly. There might be some charter schools that receive private funding to provide adequate resources but that money might dry out, is not scalable and the schools are not inclusive.
By the way, have you visited STEM, Aviation High School or any of the progressive alternative schools in Seattle? You will see innovation and inclusion and within the school budget. That’s been a miracle!
Dora
Ms. Bailey-Fogarty,
These are great stories – and they’re not systemic level solutions for a state with 1 million kids, or a nation of 50 million+ students.
You write in the style of the people trying to turn public education into just another publicly funded, publicly enforced, privateering racket – here are a few examples, so, let’s make broad policy on a few examples !!
There are 2 or 3 million teachers in the United States – there are ALWAYS some off-the-deep-end examples to … blame unions about! There are thousands of schools – let’s TFA ‘em all with motivated and dedicated teachers … unlike those public school drones!
Down the hall from my classroom College Access Now does great work at my school with our kids. Outside our school, the ed-deform crowd provides great employment for the kind of glib self important power point jockeys I had the misfortune to work under at Microsoft – the kind of managers who’ve got great houses in the Queen Annes and Cap Hills while their organizations export jobs.
Next.
rmm.
RMM, I am not sure if I’m getting the full meaning of your comment. I don’t know which side of the debate “ed deform” refers to, and if you read the end of my comment you’d see I clearly do not say charter schools are a “systemic level” solution. Public education is “publicly funded and publicly enforced,” so I’m not sure what your point is there. I’m sorry.
Dora, thank you, most of all, for such a reasoned response. I have to say I was a little nervous to comment at all because the climate has become pretty vicious, and attacks are made on individuals as often as they are made on issues or institutions. So, thank you.
You make a lot of good points, but the reality is that we are already losing seats. Why are some schools under-enrolled when we know the neighborhood is packed with kids? The families send their kids to private school and the money disappears. I know families who are saving money in case their child doesn’t get into Garfield. Is that a healthy public school system? No. At least charters are public, available to even the poorest parent (lottery, I know, I know, but so is that last seat at Garfield).
The proposed charter law even allows for collective bargaining. I’m in favor of unions and collective bargaining. I’ve taught a long time and I’m married to a teacher, but I’m not interested in being bullied into joining one union instead of another. I support a teacher’s right to decide for herself, and I would hope my fellow SEA members would be supportive of any educator, public, private, charter, or preschool. My support of the charter option (with the right law) is in no way “anti teacher” or even anti-union.
And I’m lucky. I’m lucky to love my neighborhood school – we chose it before we were forced to by the boundary changes – but I’ve talked to a lot of parents who have given their neighborhood school a shot, invested a lot of time and money and energy, and finally give up. I don’t teach in those schools so I can’t tell you what’s happening on the teacher side, but as a parent I sympathize with the helplessness, frustration and anger parents feel with a system that has more momentum than they could ever hope to gain in the few years their children are a part of it. I sympathize with the reality that a child has nine months to have a great kindergarten experience – there isn’t a moment to be lost trying to make a bad situation better. As the parent of a kindergartener, I’m not interested in sacrificing my daughter’s first experience with school to a teacher who doesn’t want to be there. I’m a working mom. I can’t volunteer in the kindergarten classroom to help a teacher through a rocky year.
I’m sorry. I got off on this tangent because of a conversation I had today with a parent who is at the end of her rope with her daughter’s kindergarten teacher – a teacher who was thrust into a kindergarten class when she didn’t want to be there. It’s true that these situations are rare, but they’re very real to the families who have to deal with them, who aren’t interested in patience and support if it means their child loses a year. I have a lot of sympathy for these families.
My point is, I support another option for those families. And yes, our option schools are awesome. I have former students who went on to Aviation, NOVA, or who transferred to Center School. I have always had students who came up to secondary from alternative schools, and I know those schools were excellent. These schools are doing great work. I really, really like that the staff are given the freedom to fly and the families are able to find a good fit for their child. I see careful allowance of charters to expand this option for families.
And I’m not sure about your allotment explanation – someone who can spend more time on it than I (essays to grade – little girls having been tucked into bed for a lengthy mid-comment break) can maybe clarify – but I believe the state gives districts more money for every special needs child than we get for children who are not qualified for special education. Does anyone have an answer to this? I’m a little embarrassed I don’t know for sure, but I’m pretty sure a child who qualifies for special education services does not take more from the pot than a child who doesn’t. I’m pretty sure the state puts more into the pot for those children.
The schools I saw were Watts Learning Center (elementary), KIPP LA Prep (Middle) and Locke High School. I know there have been flow charts and failing charter data and privatization fears all over the internet lately, and I get that those are real concerns. All I can tell you is that I saw three schools where every child I spoke with was proud of her school and confident in her future. Every teacher I spoke to felt professionally fulfilled. You might think I was led on a careful, “guided” tour, but I wasn’t. I went on the tour looking for cracks, and so snuck off and asked questions and peeked in classrooms and interviewed kids. My preconceptions were overturned. I feel really strongly that those of us who argue that what’s happening in public schools can’t be defined by numbers should resist the temptation to define charters because we saw a chart. You should go, and tour, and ask, and witness. Not the bad charters – we all know they exist, as do bad traditional schools – but the charters who have done amazing things. Mercer is doing amazing things. Go tour it.
Locke High School, which is a “turnaround” school, kept its student population and 60% of its staff (who are unionized, though not UTLA). I spoke with three teachers who were there before and after the charter “takeover,” and all three said that things were better now, that they felt better able to take care of their students, and that they felt a cohesiveness with their colleagues that didn’t exist before. As RMM points out, these are “just stories,” but they are stories of someone who toured charters as a skeptic, asked a lot of questions, and now feels like charters can exist to enhance, not eliminate, what’s offered by our existing public schools.
And Watts Learning Academy? I do not have time to write my love report on that place. If I could have my children experience that kind of environment, I would. The teachers had a say in what went on. The students were in love with their school. Parents were all over the place, totally at home and welcomed. 99% high poverty. 99% African American. I mean, it’s Watts. The principal who was an LA Unified teacher for more than a decade before taking on the task of leading a charter. It was a remarkable place to be. I will say that again. It was a remarkable place to be.
I teach at Eckstein. My name is here. You can google me. I think a charter school – or an option school – could open up down the block and do things I’m not doing, serve students I’m not serving, meet the needs of families I’m meeting, and that is not a threat to what I do. Instead, I think it would would strengthen the community’s faith in public education, better serve families who can’t afford any option but public schools for their child (like me), and maybe I’d get to go visit a bunch of teachers who were trying new things. Maybe it would make me a better teacher. I’m okay with that.
And I have to say, I totally agree with your piece on the resolution passed by the NAACP. That was beautiful. Charters segregate because they serve a certain population very well, and so are in danger of creating separate opportunities. That’s not what we want. But I would hope that we also do not want limited options. I would hope that those of us lucky enough to have a neighborhood school that is a perfect match for our child would keep our minds open to the needs of the families who find themselves at a complete loss, without options, and with no time to lose.
Kristin,
First of all, Seattle is experiencing an increase in student population. This is no surprise because per the census report that the school board and the former supe chose to ignore during the school closure debacle two years ago, there has been an increase of married young couples over the last five years or so and now they are having families. Also, because of the dismal economic picture at this time, many parents have decided to put their children into public school rather than keep them in private schools so the exact opposite is happening. Our school population is increasing and schools are having to reopen at great expense and temp structures beginning to be constructed throughout Seattle.
(Which brings up the point of where these charter schools would be housed. Most charter schools co-house with public schools or take them over through the notion of “turning around ” a school. When these charters co-house it is usually with disastrous results, see:Parents fight to keep charter out of Flatbush: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-09-08/local/30147069_1_charter-school-parents-fight-angry-parents and NYC Public School Parents blog post: http://nycpublicschoolparents.blogspot.com/2011/12/brooklyn-parents-teachers-community.html)
In terms of charter schools being available to all, that’s not the case either. Most charter schools do not except special needs students or ELL students. This is because the charter school is to maintain a certain level of “achievement” based on test scores. It the charter school does not “perform”, the school is to be closed. Also low performing students are “counseled out”. In terms of examples of charter schools and special needs students, please look in the right hand column of this page and scroll down to “Charter Schools and Special Ed”. In terms of the high attrition rate of students, particularly African American males, see: Bay Area KIPP lose 60% of their students: http://www.examiner.com/education-in-san-francisco/bay-area-kipp-schools-lose-60-of-their-students-study-confirms and http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2011/03 and Study Finds High Dropout Rates for Black Males in KIPP schools, /31/27kipp_ep.h30.html?tkn=XQPFx%2FM2fyLmh1AhzEKg0PYNIqV0SkZ1DeSj&cmp=clp-edweek, so you can see that these “miracle charters” are really no magic bullet.
One other article that I just stumbled upon regarding the attrition rate in charter schools is, Charter Nix 23% of Kids, http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/charters_nix_of_kids_jXEEhJtQx9eQiGUiD3vInN
What we need to do is be focusing on getting adequate funding for all of our schools.
If you are referring to KIPP, which seems to be the charter chain of choice at the moment, in terms of “collective bargaining”, well, they have “bargained” twice with teachers. See: Unionizing KIPP, http://dailycensored.com/2010/06/18/unionizing-charter-schools-bashing-teacher-unions-and-really-all-unions-how-the-right-wing-makes-us-hate-organized-working-people/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Dailycensored+%28Dai
The difference between the programs that we have now and charter schools is that our schools are inclusive. Nova serves special needs students as successfully as they do others parts of the student population. Also there is no such thing as a careful and slow expansion of charter chains. Once they get their foot in the door, that’s it. In fact, Arne Duncan wants to lift the cap on charter schools in all states and has incentivized that once again with cash. Also, it is very easy for the charter chains to go back in a year and request an increase in the cap as has happened around the country. Don’t be fooled by that trminolgy in the proposed bill..
In terms of special needs students, they receive the same allotment as every other student. The money is pooled and certain students will need to draw more on that pool than others. The additional money that you might be referring to is Title 1 money which goes to schools where there is a certain percentage of students who are on the free and reduced lunch program. Many times these charter chains have access to that money because of the students who are in their schools.
Unfortunately, even though these sound like great schools, they are not scalable. These schools receive private funding which might disappear for whatever reason. Just for that reason alone, the focus needs to be on adequate funding for the schools that we have now, not on having charter schools that have turned out for the most part to not be any better at achieving particular results based on test scores than public schools.
I do believe that bringing charter schools into the forefront at this time only distracts us from the fact that what we need is MONEY for our schools, not another false magic bullet.
Eric – it is apparent from your “lesson” that you have not read the proposed charter legislation for Washington. Let me help you out.
The bill does not allow for “for-profit” organizations to run charters.
It would only grant charters to organizations “with track records of serving educationally disadvantaged students.” They would not be allowed to “skim” the best students. Whoever shows up, they must educate. If there is more demand than there are seats available (and this happens quite often in the kinds of communities into which these charters go), there would be a lottery. A charter must meet “specific, higher performance measures” than traditional public schools.” If the charter is unsuccessful and the kids don’t learn, it can be shut down, unlike a traditional public school that is failing.
Finally, I am a little baffled by your question “Why do rich folks propose one kind of school for poor kids, but send their own kids to very different kind of schools?” Um, they send their kids to a successful school because they CAN. Because they can afford to send their kids to private school. Or help their PTSA earn $200,000. They know the public schools are failing – so they send their kids to successful schools by buying a house in an expensive neighborhood with a functioning school. Is it bad that they (and many other non-rich folks, btw) are calling for ALL parents to have choices for their kids, regardless of income? I don’t care who is agitating for all parents to be able to choose an excellent education for their children. At least they are thinking about the KIDS.
I guess I would ask you a question… Why do people who either don’t have children of their own or who are wealthy enough to afford a house in a zip code with good schools or who have enough money to pull their kids out of a failing school and send their kids to private school – why do those people feel they have the right to tell a parent who does not have those options, that they cannot have a choice for their child? That they must sit by and watch the schools failing their children year after year while those with money get to pull their kids out and get a good education somewhere else? As an educator who claims to be for social justice, this seems like a glaring contradiction.
Erin,
The term “non-profit” means basically with KIPP that they don’t have to pay taxes. In 2010 KIPP had a revenue of over $200M and their CEO’s, as they are referred to, were paid handsomely.
In fact they have so much money that they spent a lot of cash on a staff retreat in the DR, see: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/bronx-charter-school-spent-thousands-staff-retreats-audit-shows-article-1.275564.
There has been very little oversight of these schools, non-profit or not see: http://nycpublicschoolparents.blogspot.com/2010/10/comptroller-di-napoli-and-harry-wilson.html. Which leads many of us to the question of who is going to pay for the oversight of these schools? A for profit CMO, Charter Management Organization, which is an added layer of expense, or a state office which will oversee all of the schools which is also an additional expense?
I guess I’ll be saying this in my sleep soon, but we need to focus on adequate funding for the schools that we have so that ALL of our students can succeed.
In terms of skimming, that doesn’t happen usually during the acceptance process of a student into a school, it happens as these students are “counseled out”. KIPP and other charter schools have a history of this. If you’re going to hold KIPP’s feet to the fire in terms of test scores so that they can keep their charter, there will be students counseled out.
As one person intimated after her trip to see these miracle schools in LA, “They’re just like the Catholic schools in the 1950′s”. They are fairly regressive in their approach in terms of uniforms, memorization with very little emphasis on critical thinking and what I would term “behavior modification” in terms of how these students are to “behave” in school. Would I want my daughter to go to such a school? No. Do I think that private schools are like this? I know that they’re not unless they’re parochial schools.
Do students in Seattle communities have choice? Absolutely. We have programs offered throughout the district such as STEM, the progressive alternative schools and the Montessori program as well as the “Innovative Schools” that we haven’t even begun to develop. Unfortunately, our former Broad-trained supe re-segregated our schools but that can be reversed and I believe that it should be.
Instead of beating the drum for charter schools, let’s focus on getting adequate funding for all of our schools. That is the only thing that will truly make all of our schools successful.
Dora
Kristin’s husband here – also a teacher in Seattle Public Schools.
I just had a couple of points to make about the original post and the language of the bills.
First, regarding point #3, the bill requires that any charter school in Washington be open to all students in their respective districts. They can’t cherry pick. If the school has more applications than seats, students are admitted by lottery.
Regarding point number 6, the bill also excludes for-profit charter management organizations.
I have to say, I’m also very nervous about weighing in on this. I’ve seen so many people involved in discussions around education reform resort to character assassination, straw man arguments, and blatant misinformation. Too often, people paint the opposition as nothing more than slavering idiots, evil bogeymen, or worse. It’s not helpful. I, for one, am seriously interested in exploring some different options in American Public Education.
I’m in favor of this bill. That doesn’t make me a corporate tool. It doesn’t mean I want to undermine public education. It doesn’t even mean I’m a union-busting Republican. For the record, I’m a Democrat. I’m a union member (and area rep), and have always been pro-union. And I’m a public school teacher and parent.
Finally, regarding Eric’s question: “Who really benefits from charter schools? What are their motives?”
Instead of floating that question and leaving it hanging ominously, how about actually asking someone who runs or wants to run a charter school what their motives are? Engage in the conversation in a truthful way, and expect nothing less from the people you’re engaging with. Publish the conversation here.
Oh…one more “finally” – On Tuesday night, January 17, the Washington State PTA is sponsoring a forum on Public Charter Schools. (http://tinyurl.com/7xo7bul) The panel will have both pro and con speakers, including Olga Addae (SEA President) and Robin Lake (Center for Reinventing Public Education). It should be an interesting event. I’d encourage anyone who’s interested in this issue to attend.
Sincerely,
Joe Bailey-Fogarty
Seattle Public School teacher
Board member of Teachers United (http://teachersunitedwa.org/)
A bit of an addendum – the Teachers United site in my sign-off is still under development. We’re a relatively new organization and it’s just a brief bit of info. A full site will be up within a few weeks.
-Joe
Ah yes, Teachers United. Wasn’t that started by the former TFA’er who came to Seattle with his wife who ran charter schools in New Orleans and is now SPS director for the part of the Seattle School District that would have charter schools in them if you had anything to do with it? The same guy who after teaching for one year in our public school system, decided to become a one-man band against the teacher’s union and for all things in terms of corporate reform?
I would love to know if the folks posting comments here are former TFA recruits as well. Ha! Now I get it.
Anyway, yes, the PTA forum. I will be covering that in another post.
And yes, the lottery. That is a way to make parents and others feel that this school must be very special if it requires a lottery. Why not go through the same procedure as other public schools do? If you can’t get in, the student is placed on a waiting list. Why make such a big deal about it? There’s nothing fair or democratic about a lottery.
Anyway, now that we see who you are and that this is just an onslaught of reformers on a mission, I won’t waste any more of my time having a discussion with you.
Dora
Hmm. Teachers United, huh? I am pleased to learn that there are actual teachers involved. Many of us teachers assumed it was just another astro-turf sham fronted by Chris Eide, former teacher who “had to quit teaching because it was too hard to be a teacher and political activist.” Tell me, who pays Mr. Eide’s salary? Who, exactly? I mean, where does the money come from? Of course, it’s the pro-charter Gates Foundation, right? Prove me wrong, oh mighty board member of mysterious-organization-without-member-list-or-contact-info….
As far as charter schools and the resegregation of the United States:
A 2010 study by researchers at University of Colorado-Boulder and Western Michigan University found that most charter schools were “divided into either very segregative high-income schools or very segregative low-income schools” compared to their sending districts, and that the pattern had changed little between 2000-01 and 2006-07. They also tended to enroll a lower proportion of special education students and English-language learners. (Miron, Urschel, Mathis, 2010)
Eric, I did not see a list of members for SEE, either. Teachers United, like SEE, is made up of teachers, and we’re not required to pay a monthly fee to be members.
Dora, I’m not a former TFA teacher, but it’s disappointing you’d be so quit to shut down the discussion simply because you and I don’t agree on something like charter schools. It’s sad to me, someone who’s taught for sixteen years, has paid union dues for sixteen years, that you’d throw a label at me that somehow, magically means a conversation’s not worth your time. Do you really want to engage only with people who agree with you?
That anonymous comment, marked at 10:09 even though it’s 7:10, is by me.
Dora – I would like to ask you if you have ever set foot in a high-performing charter school? Have you ever talked to the students and parents at such a school about how THEY feel about it? I have. They are joyful. I repeat – joyful – about their schools. The classrooms I went in (dozens) were happy places. The kids were excited about learning. The parents talked about how thankful they were for the school. One parent told me (literally with tears in her eyes) “Now my child can go to college and not have to work three jobs like me someday.” I would have LOVED to have had my own children attend one of these schools. For real. And I live in NE Seattle where the schools are considered to be quite good.
Although you might not want to send your children to a charter school (and I respect that), there are plenty of families who would love to. How can you tell them they can’t choose that? Have you ever talked to a parent in SE Seattle who is desperate to get her child another option other than her failing public school? I have. These schools are getting infusions of extra money and still not meeting the needs of their students. And the children of these parents don’t have 3 years or 5 years to wait for the school to turn around. They need another option right NOW. Their child’s future depends on it.
I maintain that were you in their situation, you would want a choice too. I get frustrated when people who don’t have children in these situations (and haven’t talked to those who are) decide other people shouldn’t have a choice about where they send their child to school. These parents have dreams for their children and they are watching them slip away with every passing school year. That makes me really sad.
Your arguments ring hollow. This country has been there and done that and it doesn’t work. It’s time to move on.
Choice is another term that gets overused when it comes to arguing for charter schools. Students have choices and they are good ones in our state. To promise a child a shiny penny and then for that child to discover that it isn’t so special after all is cruel and that’s what charter schools do to the students and the parents. There are great things promised by charter schools but as you know, the promise does not live up to the reality.
See my post The Time of the Corporatization of our Public Schools in the Form of Charter Schools Has Come and Gone, http://seattleducation2010.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/the-time-of-the-corporatization-of-our-publi-schools-in-the-form-of-charter-schools-has-come-and-gone/
Dora
“Anyway, now that we see who you are and that this is just an onslaught of reformers on a mission, I won’t waste any more of my time having a discussion with you.”
I was enjoying the discussion in the comments and am disappointed to read your above sentiment. Everyone was being thoughtful and I found the comments informative. Why would you, a person who seemingly wants to improve education, say that?
Being as you clearly don’t like “reformers on a mission” does that mean you’ll not be observing MLK Jr Day?
Hey,
There are actually a lot of teachers from Seattle, Tacoma, and growing numbers from around the state who believe that the best way forward for our education system is to start with the question: “What does it mean for students?” We will measure success in the education system by how well our students are doing, after all. Teachers United works to foster open, non-discriminatory (we never use terms like: “Big Labor” when referring to unions or “Ed Deform” when referring to theories about corporate motivation, it’s childish and divisive and prevents deeper thinking) dialogue around policy, then advocating for policies that we believe will help our students. We do not charge teachers to join TU, but we do require that they share our belief that ALL students can graduate high school prepared for college or their career. Moreover, we believe that not all teachers are being heard, for reasons such as Kristin alluded to. On blogs like this and others, ad hominem attacks, and sometimes personal attacks based upon assumptions about that person happen. It happens to me all the time, and any attempts that I make to meet people in person to discuss issues they seem concerned about are either met with further attack or silence. It discourages true dialogue. Similar things happen in schools. For that reason, Eric, we won’t ever publish the names of those incredible teachers who are in TU. There is no point to it. (The board (all educators) is public information.) Most of us know one another, and the professional network that is growing from it is inspiring to be a part of. Once it is fully running, I hope to be able to go back into the classroom and join it as a full-time teacher. Being away from kids every day is truly the most difficult part of my life right now, which I expect educators can understand.
Since we don’t charge teachers, and we don’t come from rich families that can support this work, we have to look for help. The Gates Foundation awarded us a very small grant for start-up costs as you well know. They also have given teacher unions upwards of $6,118,925 since 2009. While they think that supporting the involvement of educators in dialogue around education policy is worth giving a shot (Teachers United), they also think that giving millions of dollars to unions (who already have a steady stream of income) to support programming that supports teachers is also a good idea. If they wanted to support anti-union (which we in no way intend to be) activities, this doesn’t add up. In addition, “astro-turf” refers to an organization that is funded from outside the region and is comprised of people who claim to be grassroots, but aren’t. We are all from here, we work here. The Gates Foundation is located across from the EMP. We are not an “astro-turf” organization. Please stop saying that.
I would love to meet with Dora, Eric, RMM, or anyone else who will have a human conversation about these issues. Please feel free to contact me to set it up: chris@teachersunitedwa.org. Or, go ahead and continue to make assumptions and bash us and the superhero teachers who are a part of Teachers United. I’m sure the next post will do just that.
Christopher,
Save it for your Facebook page.
Dora
I have to get to my kids (fifth graders), but I can’t leave Eric’s and Dora’s comments without at least a tiny rebuttal.
Eric – Would you speak like this to me if we were having a face to face conversation? (“oh mighty board member of mysterious-organization-without-member-list-or-contact-info….”). I work very hard with my students to teach them how to have a civil dialogue, how to respect (and even try to understand) opposing opinions. I’m not your teacher, and I won’t try to give you a long lesson on respect. But I would seriously expect more from an adult, especially an educator like yourself.
Dora – Dismissing an opposing viewpoint by criticizing a group you don’t like is no way to have a conversation. There are many people who have friends, colleagues, and affiliations with groups I really dislike, but whose opinions on specific matters are valid. I’m not going to tell them “OH – you like ‘so-and-so,’ obviously your argument is invalid.”
Anyway – I thought this was a post about the charter bill….
Cheers –
Joe
I don’t dislike TFA, Inc., we just don’t need them in Seattle.
Dora
Also by the way – since Dora asked about disclosing TFA affiliations: I’ve never been connected to TFA, though I support the school board’s decision to allow TFA members to apply. My Masters in Teaching is from UW. I’ve been teaching for 6 years.
-Joe
Dora – you didn’t answer my questions. Have you ever seen a charter school? Have you ever spoken to parents whose children attend them? And have you ever spoken to a parent who wants one for their child? I wonder why won’t you answer these questions?
Yes, I know many parents whose children have been in charter schools or are in charter schools. Most of them I know through Parents Across America, http://parentsacrossamerica.org/. And all of them have the same view that I do, charters don’t work overall and they are not scalable. One woman in particular who you would be interested in hearing from is Karran Royal in New Orleans, this is her blog: http://edutalknola.com/2011/03/25/the-myth-of-%E2%80%9Cchoice%E2%80%9D-in-new-orleans-how-the-recovery-school-district-through-the-charter-school-movement-has-cheated-nearly-5000-new-orleans-students-out-of-access-to-real-%E2%80%9C/.
In fact, I think that the post that I am directing you to should see the light of day and I will be posting it on Sunday if you care to visit back then.
If I don’t answer your questions it’s not a matter of obfuscation, it’s usually because I miss it in all of your dialogue.
If a parent told me that they wanted their child to go to a charter school, I would have a sit-down with that parent, if they were in Seattle, and help them find the right school for their child because there is the right school for everyone in our state.
Now, don’t you have children to teach?
Dora
I would speak to you like that in person, actually, if we were talking about these kinds of issues (if I were pulling over to help you change a flat, I’d be a lot nicer). I teach my students to set their BS detector to high and speak truth to power. A lot of us teachers are very very suspicious of the origins, funding, and agenda of your Teachers United organization. Mr. Eide himself tried to infiltrate an SEA meeting last month, and had to be asked to leave. We are tired of getting pushed around by rich folks (not you, presumably, if you’re a teacher, but Mr. Gates and Mr. Broad) with ridiculous agendas.
That’s neat that you don’t require members to pay a fee. So where does the money come from for “Teachers United” ? Is Mr. Eide a full-time salaried Teachers United activist? SEA is funded by member dues. SEE is funded by member dues.
Dora -
I am a parent and I am a former teacher. Not currently teaching.
We do not have school choice in Seattle. How are you going to get a kid in a failing school in South Seattle who has no money for private school and whose parents cannot afford to buy a house in the north end into “the right school?” You seem to know things that the rest of us don’t. Please describe to me exactly how you can do this and I will share that with the parents in failing schools.
I suppose we’re working towards a record in terms of comments on one post.
We have STEM, Montessori, the progressive alternative schools, the option schools, APP, the International Baccalaureate programs, schools such as Aviation High, we have ELL programs, SBOC for newly arrived immigrants, Middle College, a great Homeschool Resource Center, South Lake High School and now the Innovation Schools which was an initiative passed in the last legislative session that is just getting underway. Why don’t we give that program, for instance, a little time before you throw your hands up in despair. See http://www.k12.wa.us/innovativeschools/default.aspx.
Let’s focus on funding, see Report: Wash. gets an ‘F’ in education spending, http://www.seattlepi.com/local/connelly/article/Report-Wash-gets-an-F-in-education-spending-2496018.php and smaller class sizes, another initiative that was passed in 2000 and still hasn’t come to pass, http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Washington_School_Class_Sizes_Act,_Initiative_728_%282000%29.
If we had adequate school funding, even enough money to have smaller class sizes which means more face to face time with teachers, and wraparound services for students who need it, you would see a whole new world in Seattle and in the state.
Dora
Regarding PTAs and the ability to raise $200K. Here is a fact: some SPS schools receive $5K per student , while others (FRL dependent) receive $7,500.00 per student. So, if a low income high school school has 780 students @ $7500 per student- that school would receive $1.5M more than the school getting $5K per student.
SPS is moving in the right direction. Two high schools have moved from level 3 to level 5. We have level 1 schools moving to level 3 schools. We don’t need charters. I prefer the state to fully fund education. How about the state paying for full time K? How about the state paying for 6 periods of high school? How about the state paying for 180 days of school?
Schools with higher amounts of students receive more funds. For example, our elementary schools with 450 students are able to fund counselors. Take students out of the schools and supports diminish- for all children.
Studies do not support charters provide better student outcomes.
Seems like people are talking past one another here but I just have a question that has been bugging me and as I read these blogs more things become clear. Everybody who is in a failing school wants out of a failing school. I think a school rating of failing has to do with the success or failure of the students. So everyone who is failing in a failing school wants to leave the failing school where they are failing and are the statistic that makes it a failing school and take their failing statistic with them to a charter school. And the charter school which is not a failing school are being billed as the places that these failing statistics can move to because at this charter school they will no longer be failing statistics. And that’s not the only group that wants to support charter schools. There are those parents who do not want to put their potentially successful statistics in a school full of notoriously failing statistics and since they don’t want to pay for private school they want the state to fund a charter school in their neighborhood so they can opt out of the failing school and move their potentially successful statistics into a charter school which is being billed as a refuge for the failing statistics. I am confused. Eric Pettigrew says that charter schools are the hope for all of these failing statistics but in this blog there are those parents of the potentially successful statistics that want to claim the charter school for themselves because they can’t afford private schools. So which statistics are showing up in this charter school; the failing statistics in which case the charter school is built on remediation or the potentially successful students in which case the charter school is built on AP. Oh, no sounds like the public schools all over again but this time we now have a new political organization not responsible to the will of the people through the election of school boards but to the oversight of legislative committees down in Olympia that threaten to close them if they don’t succeed. What is the cost of opening a school to watch it fail in the first five years to be closed. That must cost something. I read in the charter bill proposal all of the things the school districts need to do to accommodate the needs of these new quasi public private schools. All sorts of sales and transactions. That must cost something. And so while these privately funded charter advocates run out to get a piece of the already dwindled public pie promising to do what, I don’t know, more resources that could be directed toward the same problem the charter schools will have are now diluted amongst a whole group of unelected ne’r do well non-profit charters (non-profit managers will I am sure be quite handsomely rewarded since teachers will have no bargaining rights to as workers share fairly in the revenue stream).
Here’s my point. Who is this legislature that can not pass a tax to fully fund education on its own but must send it to a peoples referendum but behind closed doors with lobbyist’s pouring money into their ears can against the will of the people take away the power of the democratically elected school boards everywhere in the state and give it to a costly experiment in new management which has statistically been shown to be at best in a dead heat with public schools which in my mind would be a loss given that public schools teach everyone; the failing statistic and the potentially successful statistic each according to his willingness and ability to succeed.
So back to my question which group of interests are going to lay claim to the charter school movement; those of the failing statistics that Eric Pettigrew claims is the entire basis for bringing in charter school or those that have potential success but because of economics can’t get out of their local district of failing schools. So if you tell me that they will all join together because its open to all, I will tell you the parents of the potentially successful statistics will take a long hard look at the academic proficiency of the students entering that school before they make a commitment. So if you tell me the failing statistics, as the legislature claims, will be served by the charter school and no one else wants to come aren’t we in effect creating an environment that will ultimately be discriminatory.
The public schools are great, get off our back. The teachers who teach at failing schools are the best among us because they are willing to give everything to raise up the forgotten, no matter how deficient they are in academic proficiency. Stop expecting miracles. Find funding. Be pleased with incremental success and a commitment to get better. The achievement gap is in our society and it is not gone yet and is in fact getting worse. What makes you think that the schools which are a reflection of the communities they serve, can do better than the society. If they can it is from committed teachers to stick with it and a committed citizenry to find the funding to make it happen. But that’s not going to happen because the legislature can’t tax the wealthy and there isn’t enough money so that districts must choose between teachers and books (SSD). And now you want to bring even more costs into the system that already can’t fully fund education.
I would cry if I wasn’t so being absolutely furious when I watch or listen to the legislature bringing down reform movement from on high that there only true effect are on Collective Bargaining, the teacher seniority system and I am quite certain the pay scale. I frankly think that is what this is all about union busting, reducing teacher salaries and increasing hours, and segregating schools.
Oh, I get it. Pettigrew has an idea If we don’t have to pay teachers past the sixth year because they will be burned out we will save all kinds of money. If we don’t have seniority we need only pay the teachers at the beginning salary range never approaching a middle class salary which can only come after you average the payments over a 15 year period time. It’s all about money. Follow the money and what you will see is that private interests want union’s out, they want teacher’s as at will employees and they want them functioning under the damoclean sword of fixing the achievement gap that stubborn thing that persists in this nation of gaps in achievement, gaps in opportunity and gaps in success. It’s the American way don’t you know. Just the Public schools put out the hope that it is not and are going to the mat for our gap students. You want to take away even more funding and hand it to private enterprise because you think the business model is better for students. It may be better for statistics but never for students. Students are young people from our society we spend every day of our lives as PUblic school teachers fixing what is broken and we didn’t break it. We are the good guys. If Microsoft and Boeing want charter schools let them pay for them why must the public coffers be raided to do the bidding of the wealthy who fundamentally only want that voucher system deal so they can get their potentially successfull students into those private selective schools so they don’t have to hang out with those failing statistics, the kids Eric Pettigrew says this is all about.
Well, I think you covered it.
Next item on the agenda after keeping our public schools in the hands of the people is to find someone to replace Pettigrew.
Dora
Chris,
Take your dog and pony show someplace else.
Dora
Hi – my name is Robert Murphy – honestly, is there anything to “talk” about with people like you ed deformers?
You pick anecdotes as systemic problems, and you pick one off “solutions” to systemic problems, and you sling these great soundbites coming from the doublespeak master toadies of the rich.
Have any of you noticed how our society has ‘evolved’ in the last 30 years? Have you noticed that there are LESS middle income jobs? Have you noticed that there is LESS access to health care, especially if you lose 1 of those few jobs which pay decently? Have you noticed that there is LESS access to secure retirement, due to decades of kissing wall street’s corrupt behind?
Have you noticed the highly degreed, highly credentialed, highly paid cla$$ of yuppies living large these decades, in the Queen Anne and Cap Hill kind of neighborhoods, many of them … “Democrats”, ALL of whom are on the latest bandwagon when the bucks are handed out? Have you seen them EFFECTIVELY fight any of the right wing policies wrecking the community? Funny how they can’t stop AHIP or Pharma or Exxon or BP or AIG or Goldman … but… there is a crappy Kindergarten teacher! Let’s WRECK everything so Michelle Rhee & Wendy & Co can line their pockets!
On http://www.guidestar.org I checked out TFA’s and KIPPs 990 a year or so ago – OVER $500,000 for the Kopp Kipp household! Stupid me, I think of ‘not for profit’ as the Salvation Army bell ringers … not 1/2 a million in Manhattan!
I’m 52, I’ve voted Democratic for decades, and I’ve been sold out for decades – all so that Queen Anne / Cap Hill branch of the Democratic Party can betray the 99% and keep their nice houses. YOU want to work for them and with them – while they turn PUBLIC education into more Kopp-Kipp rackets – it makes sense! In most of the world, the point of the government is to rip off the population for the ponzi schemes, pyramids and baubles of the powerful. The Arne Duncan / Rahm branch of the Democratic Party is working for the powerful, NOT for me.
Do you think they’re on YOUR side ?? ha ha.
The day you deformers want to hold accountable the people who’ve been in charge over the last decades, the people who’ve been in the top 5% and 1% of income for decades, the people who are the ones who have made the crappy policy for decades, then we’ll have something to talk about. Maybe we’ll run into each other leafleting or doorbelling.
Ciao. rmm.
Dora: You and the other writers at SE2010 continue to rock. I love it. Back here in little Delaware we were finally able to get legislation that tightened up the charter school movement a bit by improving oversight–there was very little and too many charter schools got into pretty serious trouble and were threatened with closure. It also enforces impact studies on the potential effects of charter schools on neighboring schools. It’s a start but we still have a great deal of pressure to form up schools that along with school choice seem to reinforce resegregation of our schools. There are lots of local charter schools where I would not send my kids. The ones that get all the press and attention are virtual private schools in public school clothing–a fabulously performing high school for the creme de la creme of achievers. Big success! Surprised? Not I.
Frederika,
Thank you for your words of encouragement, They mean a lot. And, please keep us informed as to what is happening in your state because what happens elsewhere is probably going to happen in Seattle. I watched the wave of this privatization movement of our schools start elsewhere and now it is washing over us. Hopefully we, our students and teachers,won’t drown in this tidal wave.
Dora
One thing that seems to have been left out of this discussion is the study that showed that only 17% of charter schools outperformed public schools. I heard a parent on KUOW yesterday whose child goes to a “failing” public school. But in his eyes, the school was not failing; his child was having a good educational experience there. The school had a lot of children who had a lot of problems. If we could afford wrap around services for all students, the situation for these children could be improved. Too often part of the time spent looking for a magic bullet in education is time spent attacking public education – convince people that it is broken so that they will see a need for this or that project. What if what’s broken is our will to pay for it, and our will to keep in mind the public, common good? In the last thirty or forty years in this country we have let our competitive instincts override our sense of the common good. I remain convinced that when a student is motivated and supported by parents who care, that they can receive a good education at any public school, and that we need to do more for students who are not in that situation.
Chris,
I don’t know what your fascination is with this blog, but I consider what you post as spam and it will be treated as such.
Dora